My Cyclone...

[RICSPEED]

It also turns out that, because of demand, they will also be looking to produce a limited number of F1 grade versions of the current SI-III 5-speed box specifically for VERY high BHP race use.

iteresting as discussions in the paddock the general feeling would be the current 5 speed would fail ,probbably fall foul of the regs though too

[Adam_Winstone]

^... but this is the sort of product that makes people reconsider the regs between seasons, just think how the regs have changed in recent years to take on-board new kits, etc.

Whether this is only a Grp 6 component or is later allowed in other classes is one thing... what they allow in Europe is another. Either way, it'll be interesting to see what these enable scoots to do on the track. It'll also be interesting to see what result they have on sprinting, where being into the power between shifts will need to be played off against shifting.

Interesting times.

Adam

[bumpkin]

My view on the box is that its a great product but i fail to see how it enables a longer final drive to be pulled.
I understand that the extra gear enables you to change into top gear at a higher speed which means your more likely to be in the power band when you change into top gear but the sales pitch banded about says that a scooter fitted with the 5 speed was able to pull a longer final drive than the shorter final drive it was unable to pull with a 4 speed.
If a scooter traveling at 60 mph in 4th top gear dies on a hill with say a 4.8 final drive at say 6k rpm how on earth can the same scooter traveling at 60 mph in 5th top gear with a 4.7 final drive at a lower rpm manage to not die when it hits the same hill?
The scooter has the same power pushing the same mass but with taller gearing, surely the scooter would labour more at a lower rpm!

i can however see the point if using it with a final drive that the scooter can pull.

sent from my phone via tapatalk

..from my struggles with 4th gear up hill or into the wind its all about keeping it in the power...the large jump from 3/4 on a lot of set ups means that the revs can dip out of the power and you have to start again but wind etc precludes this, the hell of 3/4/3/4/3/4 on a windy M4 could be cured if I could sty in the power....too fast for 3rd, too slow for 5th would be cured with a mid-ratio 4th....I hope!

[Speed Demon]

I see what you are saying Eden but in your example instead of 4/3/4/3/4/3 etc because 4 is too tall and 3 is too low what you actually get is 5/4..........................4..top of hill...5. The point being that if the ratios are close then if 5th is not the right gear for the hill/conditions then there is a good chance that 4th is the right gear and you can just ride in it.

4/3/4/3/4/3 (on a 4-speed) happens because 3 and 4 are too widely spaced and third is so low that you end up revving it out up a hill before you get to a sufficient speed to pull 4th.

There's no magic here - if you had a close ratio 4-speed using the top four gears only of the Cyclone it would work exactly the same. It's just that it wouldn't have a low enough bottom gear to pull away without frying the clutch.

[RICSPEED]

i must have missed something as i thought the overall ratio was unchanged and a gear between what was 3 and 4 added and all ratios revised to give smoother changes though 1st to 5th

[joespeed]

Well, first miles on mine last night....

WOW!

Whilst I had ridden Sticky's somewhat peaky 225, my Muggy 260 is the other end of the torque spectrum and from my short test ride the impression is that this is fantastic. Whilst mine happily pulled me around France/Belgium with the 4-speed in, the torque and long gearing (4.4) meant that it was quite a 'lazy' ride (ideal for touring), however, the Cyclone means that the 'lazy' feel has been transformed into now feeling very lively. From launch in 1st to end of 5th (not that I've pushed it, as it has only just been assembled and is bedding in) it doesn't even think of hitting a lull between gears/rev, it just pulls, pulls and pulls!

I need to play the revs and ratios off against tacho (on order) feedback to ensure that I've got the ideal 5th but I certainly do have a HUGE grin on my face

Nice work RLC.

Adam

adam,you state that sticky's is a PEAKY ,is it a ts,monza std or tuned,it may be that your long stroke crank is giving you the ability to pull high gears and not the PEAKY smaller capacity thats making you state this,
the last post that eden wrote says ,4-5-4-5-4 or 3-4-3-4-3 etc,. i've not ridden the scooter with this box in but had several old 5 speed boxes in royspeeds of the day (which the ratios are useless) ,
so how good is the box in a variety of different tuned engines?

[Adam_Winstone]

Eden,

I agree with what you are saying, in that the final ratio could be the same. However, it is also true to say that most riders don't want to change up to 4th and wait, and wait, and wait for their revs to rise enough for it to be back in the power in 4th. Sure, if you are running a reasonable gearbox with a semi-decent 3rd to 4th rise then you shouldn't have to wait too long before you're back on the power.... and it is a case of how long you are prepared to wait to reach those revs.

Imagine that you take your current gearing and add an extra tooth to the front sprocket... how does it now perform? It'll probably still pull 4th eventually but you'll often find yourself in conditions where you decide to avoid the lull and keep it hammering away in 3rd, perhaps up hill or into a headwind, as you know that you'll drop out of the power/revs when you change up and the motor will labour. This sort of riding becomes tiresome and you soon change back to 1 less tooth on the front sprocket and the bike becomes much more useable again. It isn't that the motor wouldn't pull the extra tooth under the right conditions, just that the % of right conditions had dropped. What the reduced ratio rise of the Cyclone does is bring that +1 tooth ratio back into the situation where you are no longer trying to span the big jump of the 4-speed and mean that you easily pull 4th and drop very few revs when going into 5th. Basically, the conditions become the deciding factor for fewer gear changes and you'll be able to make the longer 5th more without waiting around in the 'lull'.

Try fitting an extra 2 teeth to your existing sprockets... your bike would still pull that down-hill with a wind behind you, but the 3rd to 4th jump would mean that you struggled to pull it under most conditions. The Cyclone small % rise of 4-5 just makes it feel like you're riding down-hill with the wind behind you, regardless of conditions

Trying to get your head around this is one thing, experiencing it is another? Did you not have a go on Sticky's during the C2C?

Adam

[Speed Demon]

I understand that,
I'm referring to the claim that it enables the scooter to pull a higher final drive. I did wonder if I had not understood what had been written so I didnt post anything until I had spoken to the person that had wrote the text, I said to him, " are you saying that.................
the scooter when running a 4 speed box with a final drive of 4.8 in top gear at 60mph at 6k revs on a flat road dies when it hits a hill and drops out of the power, but the same scooter with the 5 speed box using a longer final drive of 4.7 in top gear doing 60mph at 5.8rpm on a flat road does not drop out of the power when it hits a hill and he said YES.
i'm sorry but thats impossible, having more gears doesn't change the laws of physics!
it makes no difference in this scenario if you have 100 gears before top gear, if the final drive is longer than a final drive that couldnt be pulled before its going to be harder for the same engine to pull it.

I'm not talking about accelerating through the gears im talking about riding in top gear at a given speed.

I'll say again, i'm not knocking the product, i'm questioning one of the stated selling points which if true must be magic.

You are right. If your engine won't pull 4.8 then it certainly won't pull 4.7. Like I said it is not magic and it cannot twist the laws of science.

However on balance, I think it is correct that you can gear for a slightly taller top gear with a Cyclone than with a 4-speed because the 5 close ratios make getting to top speed easier and when the riding conditions are unfavourable you have a useable ratio in 4th to ride in.

[Adam_Winstone]

Nope, you are 100% correct that it doesn't make any 'like for like' rev vs ratio speed any different, it is just a matter of whether you can get there to pull it.

I'm sure that with the right road (slight decline) and the right conditions (tail wind) that I could pull just about any gearbox, with just about any motor.

IMO you are totally correct in respect to your specific point, however, that is not the same question as whether or not the Cyclone will allow you to pull a higher top. I know you understand the difference and that you understand motors/gearing better than most.

This other question, the one that you are not asking (!), could be illustrated well by considering a 6-speed small cc Jap bike, with narrow powerband. Do nothing to the engine other than take away gears 3, 4 and 5.... leaving 1, 2 and 6. Can this same bike still pull 6th gear? Answer = No. The final ratio has not changed, nor the torque or BHP of the motor... it is just that the % jumps between the gears no longer allow it to bridge the gap between 2nd and 6th. This is an extreme and intended only for illustration but you could then play the game of adding gears to see when it would work? If you refitted 3rd, could it make the jump to 6th?... still NO. How about sticking 4th back in?... still NO but getting closer and probably could if you were going down-hill. Remember that the motor has not changed, nor the power output, just it's ability to pull top in most conditions.

Noted that the above is an answer to the question that you were not asking, "Can it pull a higher 4th?", but it may help some to think through the benefits of a closer ratio gearbox, the more gears you have = the shorter these rises become and the less torque needed to span them.

You are right though that 4.8:1 x 7,000 rpm will result in the same wheel speed (mph) whether it is in 4th or 5th.

Adam

[Adam_Winstone]

^... more like a battered sausage! lol